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How many Model S cars can Tesla really sell?

Recent discussions here on Torque News have created debate over the viability of the Tesla Model S and Tesla CEO Elon Musk's projected production numbers for the car. If the company produces 20,000 cars in 2013, will it realistically be able to sell them too?

Last week, our own John Goreham penned an article in which he predicted that the major manufacturers' electric cars (Volt, Leaf) would ultimately succeed in the marketplace while small upstarts (Tesla, Fisker) would not. That article can be read here.

As would be expected, John's premise created a lot of buzz and commentary. Those of us in the automotive journalism trade know that anytime we mention certain vehicles in a less than favorable light, we will be inundated by the hardcore fans of that car who will make it clear that they think we're idiots. I myself have said that the Chevrolet Volt is "not all that" and was avalanched by "Voltophiles" calling me numerous names and nitpicking over every detail of my penmanship to find fault. This doesn't just happen with electric cars, of course. An article I wrote regarding the Chevrolet Corvair was also quite controversial, even among other automotive journalists who left commentary on my Facebook and International Motor Press Association threads regarding the article. Such is the nature of journalism.

It is knowing that the same contingent of Tesla fans will likely descend upon me that I delve into that car and its dubious future here. While I have little doubt that Tesla CEO Elon Musk's plans to build 20,000 cars next year are at least viable, it seems unlikely that the company will be able to sell twenty thousand cars in the same time frame.

Can Tesla Make 20,000 Cars?
Although there is ample room for failure, of course, it does appear at least feasible that the company could build that many cars in 2013. It has the facilities, would not need to expand its current workforce by much, and appears to have the supply lines for its needed parts and materials in place. Recent reports and filings by the company, which is relatively transparent now that it's publicly traded, show that batteries, motor parts, and aluminum - the material that makes up about 60% of the car's total - are lined up and already growing. The company has surpassed the 1,000 frame and rolling chassis mark in its production output. Many of the problems that could be expected to happen in these first stages of the car's production have happened or are happening and being resolved now, according to Tesla's Q3 2012 filing (more here).

The only thing that could slow Tesla down outside of an act of nature or similar event would be quality issues as production grows. Looking at Tesla's closest neighbor in the EV business, Fisker, illustrates how heavily this can impact a growing carmaker's mojo. It's very, very likely that Tesla will have at least one recall event during 2013, but if they are lucky, it will happen early on and be quickly taken care of and remedied on the production line before too many units have been affected.

Tesla already has, or at least is well on the way towards putting together, a full production shift for the S. To make 20,000 cars is only about 1,700 cars a month and is well within the capability of a single shift in a 20-day production month. The former NUMMI factory they are utilizing is capable of these numbers many times over if fully utilized.

Deposits As Sales Prognosticators
The most-often cited numbers relating to possible Model S sales are the number of pre-production deposits that have been made with the company. The trouble here is that these are deposits, not purchases, and can be canceled and refunded right up to the point of actual production. Tesla has more than enough deposits and sales, even given the cancelled deposits that inevitably come, to deliver all of the vehicles planned for production this year (about 2,500) and if production reaches 800+ a month in January, then all of the cars being built through to March or April of 2013 have also been sold.

The trouble with using deposits as sales indicators is that they only indicate those enthusiastic enough to put money down well ahead of the expected delivery of the vehicle. The Nissan Leaf, for example, has been produced in such low numbers that sales versus delivery have happened with a considerable lag between the time the customer orders their Leaf and that it actually appears in their driveway. On the other hand, the Chevrolet Volt used early deposits and interest as an indicator of very high sales volumes and over-produced the car to the point that they had a 90+ day glut of inventory and closed production for over a month to allow sales to clear out these large inventories.

The Model S is a car that, at its most base configuration, sells for about $57,400, but indications are that the average sales price will likely be in the $70,000 to $75,000 range. That's nearly twice the price of the Volt and well over twice the cost of the Leaf. Thus the Model S is selling in a very different market from the Chevrolet and Nissan electrics, but not quite in the extremely high price range of the Fisker Karma. This means the only comparable cars to the Model S are standard internal combustion vehicles rather than electrics and perhaps their (very low-selling) hybrid counterparts, making it hard to judge how large this luxury electric car's market might be.

The Elusive Model S Market
Sales volumes in the mid-sized luxury sport sedan market in North America are not large. It's one of the smallest in the overall automotive market, in fact, and is similar to pickup trucks in that brand loyalty is very, very strong. The Model S' uniqueness will certainly mean sales, as early deposits on future production attest. But that will not sustain sales through 2013 and Tesla will have to find many more traditional buyers. Competitive, but established ICE vehicles in the segment, such as the Audi A6 and Lexus GS, don't even sell 10,000 units per year, showing that the Model S has a tough row to hoe.

Add to that the fact that hybrids, the largest of the electrified car market, are less than 3% of the total automotive sales volume in the U.S. and most of them are low-priced Toyota Prius cars - a vehicle that costs 1/3 the price of a Model S. Total battery electric vehicle sales in the U.S., not including low-speed models, is less than half of one percent of the total automotive market.

Distribution will be another big hurdle that the company has begun addressing, but is not likely to overcome in only a year. Tesla has well under two dozen stores in North America. Competitor Lexus has about fifteen times that many outlets. At its current distributorship size (number of showrooms), Tesla would have to move about 1,200 units per showroom per year to meet the 20,000 goal. Assuming all sales are in the U.S. and Canada.

Of course, the company is working hard to get European certification to sell there - and will likely have it before the end of this year, if Musk is to be believed. They are also trying to enter some Middle Eastern and Asian markets, but no time frame has been given on those. Asia will likely happen first, but the Middle East could conceivably be where Tesla would potentially move the most cars in foreign sales. Well-heeled markets in Arabia and Israel have shown themselves capable of embracing electric vehicles at a rate better than others, but are limited in size.

Still, 20,000 units is a lot of (expensive) cars. Even with foreign sales, the company would have to sell most of its production here in North America.

Looking at the numbers objectively, doing what we can to gauge the market, and seeing the number of obstacles to be overcome to achieve Musk's 20,000 unit goal, it's very unlikely that Tesla will be able to build and sell 20,000 Model S cars in 2013. Once all markets are open and the car has been vetted, those numbers could be realistic - maybe in 2014 or 2015.

So while the Model S is an award-winning dynamo of publicity and the company's CEO is a public figure of much repute, the market is not likely going to bear 20,000 electric luxury cars in only one year. This does not reflect badly on Tesla Motors, which in all likelihood will achieve profitability in the next quarter, nor on its larger-than-life CEO Elon Musk, who has a history of making huge, bold claims and (eventually) following through on them. But Tesla fans would do well to remember that quarterly reports are as much a public relations exercise on behalf of the company's Wall Street trading as they are a reporting of the company's financial status.

Comments

Rob (not verified)    November 16, 2012 - 6:43AM

In reply to by Aaron Turpen

Tesla openly acknowledged some time ago that they had wisely decided to successfully ship 2-3,000 vehicles this year rather then aim for 5,000 and slip on quality forcing them in to a disastrous recall. I realise the "missed 2012 sales target" is a useful sound bite for those who wish to dismiss Tesla's chance of success however it shows either a misunderstanding of Tesla's release strategy or wilfully misleading conduct.

Aaron Turpen    November 16, 2012 - 11:27AM

In reply to by Rob (not verified)

First, there will be an inevitable recall and it may or may not be as disastrous as the Karma recalls have been. It's part of the vetting process any new model vehicle goes through. Even the magic Tesla will have to have one. That's going to slow things down.

Second, Musk set an ambitious target - something he has a history of doing - and then had to back off on it when reality showed up at the door. 20,000 in their first year is also an ambitious target. Reality. Kind of a pesky thing.

whity whiteman (not verified)    November 16, 2012 - 6:49AM

In reply to by Aaron Turpen

we both know, that in 2012 there will be only 2500-3000 cars... and that's not bad. Competitor cars have different problems... quality issues, burning accupacks (Volt AND Fisker) etc... nothing so far at Tesla. So, they have one shoot. Either a perfect Model S or they can shutdown the whole idea. So, achieving the highest quality is very important to them, and therefore they had to cut down the 2012-rate...but: it's better, than pushing out 5000 Cars with doubtful quality. When the lines are running on full production-pace, than in 100% quality... by the way: sorry for my bad english!

Aaron Turpen    November 16, 2012 - 11:33AM

In reply to by whity whiteman (not verified)

Which just proves my point. Thanks. As they ramp up production levels, supply chain and quality issues are going to keep cropping up. It's part of the process. Somewhere in there, something will slip through and a recall will happen. Also a normal part of the process. All things that will slow down production and therefore sales.

John Goreham    November 16, 2012 - 12:35PM

In reply to by Aaron Turpen

It is weird to see the readers think this article is negative. Anyway, we all hope Tesla succeeds, I think what Aaron and I both tried to point out is that when the company itself tells us how many cars have been produced, or how many frames (1000 was the last announcement) we think that is true. Sadly, there have been so many "Huge breakthrough just around the corner" stories related to EVs that we are calling the media and others out for exagerating or worse. There is huge brand loyalty behind Tesla, and amazing support for EVs. That is a fact. Another fact is that Tesla has only ever made about 1400 vehicles. About 1100 of which were electrified Lotus vehicles. An excellent start. In 1990 my professor (and PhD) helping a team of young engineers build an electric car from scratch told us "You can pick any two of 1) Performance 2) Price 3) Range, but you cannot have all 3." Nothing has changed since then, or since EVs began to be built over 100 years ago. We can't wait till it does. It will be easy writing for a long while.

whity whiteman (not verified)    November 17, 2012 - 1:01PM

In reply to by John Goreham

1st: They've produced at least 3000 Cars (2500 Roadster, 500 delivered Model S) in addition to different developments for Mercedes, Smart, Toyota...
2nd: The question for me is: "Is Tesla really different?"...and I thin "Yes", because of everything, they communicate. Brand Values, Design, buying factory and tools for a penny on a dollar, employ experienced guys from Toyota, Mercedes, Lotus...etc.
In every aspect this company just doesn't try to make everything different, they just make it:
own plug-in standard
own shopping system
own technique (far ahead the competitors- VW Golf EV comes in 2015 with 200KM of range)

... I could write far more, but it wouldn't change the frontiers... there are optimistics and the no-sayers and much between. This guys are big and roll out their physical priduct like google, ebay or facebook- worldwide.

Aaron Turpen    November 17, 2012 - 2:37PM

In reply to by whity whiteman (not verified)

Google and Facebook don't have physical products and have few regulatory hurdles to jump for their worldwide rollouts. Amazon gets around many of the regulations by opening distribution centers in the country they're selling in, but since they primarily sell books and digital (non-physical) products, they also have few hurdles. eBay doesn't sell products, they are a marketing point for OTHER people's products - most of which are unregulated as they are either second-hand or are locally-owned businesses anyway. Even Apple, which is the company most like Tesla in terms of its corporate branding and marketing model, sells products that are relatively unregulated.

Automobiles are one of the most heavily regulated products in the world. Few markets for them are fast and loose with their requirements (Africa and India being two that come to mind). The major markets for them are heavily regulated - China, which REQUIRES that a % of the vehicle be built there, Europe and the USA/Canada which have heavy safety and emissions testing (even for electrics) Japan which has the same and the Middle East / Israel which are also regulated and generally heavy with tariffs.

I agree that Tesla is opening new frontiers in automotive, especially with their marketing and distribution strategy, but you have to remember that these are also limiters in the short-term. People aren't used to this type of selling for cars and the company has relatively few outlets (stores) so far.

The good news is that Musk was able to do something similar before with a banking product, PayPal, but that took years of work, lawsuits, and rule skirting.

Nima K (not verified)    November 17, 2012 - 12:59PM

In reply to by Aaron Turpen

Hi Aron,
Thank you for the response, I do appreciate your dedication. And I am sorry if you felt I was painting you to be a “bad guy” , that was not my intention. I think there are no bad people in this world, there is really only a difference of opinion.

My calculation regarding the total cost of ownership is not “ridiculous”. I can go through the details with you, but it’s actually rather simple. Say you pay $600/mnth for your car payments and depending on how much you drive (I based this on my own driving which is around 3000miles/mnth) there is roughly $400/mnth in gas costs (and if you drive an Audi or BMW its higher because they need premium fuel $500-600/mnth), and another minimum of $100/mnth for routine maintenance. Using published and measured efficiency rates by several reviewers, the model S would cost as little as $40/mnth to run the same mileage. So that’s $300-400/mnth you save simply on fuel. Maintenance is another place you save money, Tesla has basically outlined their maintenance package that covers everything in the car except for tires (brakes, oil changes, and every other wear component) at $600/yr = $50/mnth, and you can ask any BMW or Audi owner how much they pay for a similar package offered and I can assure you it easily double that, I own a Q7, I don’t go to the dealer and just do the bare minimum which costs me $100/mnth. So what is the capital equivalent of saving $400/mnth in operating costs? Well a simple mortgage calculator can give you this result just punch in, $400/mnth, 3% interest, and 5 yr amortization = $22’000. So the 57k version would be the equivalent of a 35k gas car, the 75k version would be the equivalent of a 53k, and so on. It’s a simple subtraction price – 22k.

I don’t need to wait for payments to come due, I can just use math.

The argument about brand new product, brand new production has also been made for other game changing technologies, establishment has a way of enforcing this notion. Same could be said about the apple Iphone when it came out. Here was a company with no so called “well-established history” of producing phones, all new production and going into an already competitive market. We all know how that story ended. So though it seems easy to dismiss a new product from a new company because they are not established, history has shown that true change never really comes from establishment. I’d say there are plenty of examples of companies that defy this trend and most business grads agree on this.

The comparison to KIA is another indication that you do not appreciate the novelty in the product. Kia didn’t do jack all with its cars, except to produce the same 100 yr old technology at a cheaper price. You expected them to take the market by storm!!? This is the same reason why after so many years of trying only very recently has Samsung been able to catch up to Apple in Smartphones, apple was first, Samsung tried to give you a better deal for roughly the same technology, but taking the market share was a slow and painful process 1% at a time, year by year.

I don’t worship any particular brand or name, I believe that the consumers of today are less and less “brand loyal” as the term use to mean, that has been said by many business professionals, including my very own Sloan Professor Dr. DeTore in the second year “portfolio management” class of MIT MBA program. People want products that are comparatively competitive. That’s what drives their decision to purchase. I didn’t buy my Q7 because it was an Audi, I have no particular feeling towards that brand, but at the time it was the best luxury SUV by my metrics of comparison, I could have easily bought the X5, but it didn’t have what I wanted. Brand loyalty exists today in a different form, and that’s only “first to market loyalty” which means people perceive you as technologically advanced and hence believe in your product if you’re first to bring a new product to market. (ex. Apple, Dyson, IBM, Intel)

I am a mechanical engineer by trade and I don’t particularly care about this company or any other, what interests me is pure and simple engineering prows and technology. I’ve seen the model S in person many times, and I’ve spent a great deal of time studying its design elements. And so far I haven’t seen a single auto manufacturer who has done things so radically out of the box as Tesla has. They have addressed so many common problems with existing car designs. Suspension design, Structural stiffness, design for creep, fatigue and fretting corrosion, CofG placement, packaging, optimized load distribution, components light weighting and material selection have all been areas where typical manufacturers have all stagnated, new cars of today are mere tinkering of outgoing models through sheet metal design and varying engine parameters.
That’s what got me interested in the Model S, not the fact that it’s an EV, or that it’s green or any other evangelical reason you would think.

So back to the point on 20'000 per year, I believe the demand will easily be there for these cars, for the reasons I just stated, but I don't know if they will be able to produce as many cars. But sure let’s say they make 15'000 cars by end of 2013, so what? Big deal, the company will have become profitable, will have strong demand for its product, and can easily reinvest its profits to ramp up even more production and add to their marketing efforts. And by the way, I didn't see a response from you regarding the mass interest in a car that's not even in full production yet (and is in your words "unproven"), with very minimal marketing effort. And what could be achieved if only Tesla spent the same amount on marketing as any other brand in its class.

I’m sorry this is another long response, but I feel like you make one liner points that I have to counter with facts, and facts take up more space than sound bites.

Aaron Turpen    November 17, 2012 - 2:52PM

In reply to by Nima K (not verified)

Leaving aside the numbers for a minute (honestly, 99% of car buyers don't do these calculations - they merely look at the monthly payment), let's talk about your last points first.

The whole point of this article is that Tesla says they'll make and sell 20,000 cars in 2013. I refute that. That's it. That's the entire article, in a nutshell. You've said right in the last two paragraphs of your response that it's probably not likely that they'll make that many cars. I contend that they could make that many, or at least come close, but will not be able to sell them. My reasons are simple: new product = new problems. It's inevitable and it will happen. There will be a recall next year. Maybe two. Fisker had them, CODA will have them, Daimler had them, Nissan had them, Chevrolet had them... it's going to happen.

Brand new technology, including Apple's iPhone, has problems. Apple's product is probably the best comparison to the Model S with one huge exception - when you buy a phone for $500, your financial life doesn't turn upside down if it fails. A $75,000 car will cause some financial woes if it turns out to be a lemon. It's a matter of scale. So most people, unless they have a lot of financial backing (i.e. high incomes and/or net worth) are not going to gamble $75k on a car until they know it's going to work.

I compared the Model S to Kia because in automotive, that's the closest parallel in terms of coming from nowhere and becoming big in recent history. Kia was repeating what Japan did decades before and did well, but it took time. Tesla will not take the market by storm until it can produce the number of cars and gain the general acceptance required for that. My entire contention is that they won't do that next year. Your "first to market loyalty" statement is irrelevant - that's a LONG TERM idea, not a short-term one. My article and my statement shave almost entirely stuck with 2013 and nothing more. F2ML takes YEARS.

Now for the math. I agree that the Model S is cheaper than an equivalent luxury gas machine. That's not up for question. What is up for question is whether the average buyer will do that kind of math before buying the car. Most will not. The Model S will sell not based on monthly dollar figures, but based on whether the person can afford the payments (without doing complicated "saving this much gas" figuring) and whether the person likes the look and feel of the car - Tesla's own marketing proves that this is the focus. The majority of sales are, in fact, going to be to people for whom the monthly cost is irrelevant - they can afford a $800/mo payment on a car, so they'll spend it. The only exceptions to this I've seen so far are people of upper-middle income who are adopting the Model S as a "practical ELECTRIC car." In other words, they want the ELECTRIC part first, the rest is icing on the cake for them.

Rob (not verified)    November 17, 2012 - 4:03PM

In reply to by Aaron Turpen

They have orders for 15,000 vehicles and for novemeber the order rate has averaged 419 orders per week. They will have orders for over 30,000 vehicles by the end of 2013. Whatever vehicles they make in the next 12 months they will sell. The rate limiting step will be production not sales.

Aaron Turpen    November 17, 2012 - 4:26PM

In reply to by Rob (not verified)

Again, you give no reference to these fantastical numbers. Teh vast majority of those who have put down deposits were told that they could expect delivery before December 31st, thus gaining the 2012 tax break, which they will lose if their car doesn't deliver until January 1 or after. For many, this could be a cancellation point.

Current production on the Signature Series is about 200 per week, again Tesla-issued numbers at their latest conference call, and they plan to go to 400/wk in December. Doing the math, that's 600 delivered so far (give or take) plus 800 for November plus 1,600 for December - 3,000 cars - AT MOST. Out of what you claim to be 15,000 pre-orders - a number, again, with no substantiation.

Finally, another little quirk gets thrown into the works - the EPA has only certified the 85kWh battery, so Tesla can't legally begin to build any other option until certification for those comes through. Could happen next month, might wait until January.. who knows? And mind you, that's TWO options that have to be certified through the government's bureaucrats - a 60 and 40 a kWh option. At this point, Tesla is expecting certification in "late December" for the 60 and sometime in January for the 40.

You may be right that production could limit things if it falls through, but honestly, 20,000 cars given Tesla's situation (a full-fledged and working factory) is pretty doable. I still think sales will be the issue.

Rob (not verified)    November 17, 2012 - 4:43PM

In reply to by Aaron Turpen

The numbers are from the reservation number tracking threads at both the Tesla forums and the Teslamotorsclub.com forums. Here they collate reservation numbers reported by people both directly to the threads and from other media sources and then combine it with cancellation data from the conference calls to produce a gross reservations number, a net reservations number and periodically they calculate a reservations rate. I will post the most recent tracking update post;

This thread is intended to track Model S reservations.

If your reservation number is greater than the reservation number listed below, please post 1) your reservation number / date received 2) region and 3) type: Signature or General Production.

The Model X Reservation Tally can be found here:
(Can't post URLs sorry)

Here is an updated collection of the numbers posted by members on various threads and forums (i.e., these numbers are to be taken with a grain of salt):

US
SSL 249 (January 4, 2012)
S 1,353 (October 19, 2012)
R 532 (October 30, 2012)
P 13,984 (November 16, 2012)

Canada
SSL 23 (July 18, 2012)
S 177 (September 23, 2012)
P 453 (November 5, 2012)

Europe/Asia
S 500 (July 2, 2012)
R 83 (January 4, 2012)
P 1,681 (November 16, 2012)

Switzerland
S 14 (October 20, 2011)

UK
S 20 (October 9, 2012)
P 63 (November 8, 2012)

Hong Kong
S 28 (September 27, 2012)
R 2 (July 9, 2011)
P 100 (October 30, 2012)

Australia
S 38 (August 18, 2012)
P 30 (July 13, 2012)

Gross Total: 19,330 - November 16, 2012

Net Total: 15,290 - November 16, 2012*

Official Deliveries: 132 - September 23, 2012**
Official Deliveries: 250 - October 3, 2012 Announcement***
Official Deliveries: 253 - 2012 3rd Quarter - November 5, 2012 Earnings Call ****

* = Net Total subtracts the 3,787 known Signature cancellations/downgrades unit differential & 253 Deliveries announced at November 5th 2012 3rd Quarter Earnings Call (See **** Link)
** = Official Deliveries stated in September 23, 2012 SEC Filing –
*** = Official Deliveries stated in October 3, 2012 Blog Post –
An Update from Elon Musk | Blog | Tesla Motors

S = Signature Series (Model S)
SSL = Signature Special List (Model S)
R = Roadster Owner/Friends and Family
P = General Production (Model S)

Aaron Turpen    November 17, 2012 - 4:49PM

In reply to by Rob (not verified)

Well, first, Tesla can't ship to any country other than the U.S. and, for now, only in the largest battery pack. Second, these numbers are "grain of salt" numbers as it says itself. Third, we can subtract the Signature numbers from the list since they've all already been sold and are nearing final delivery. Given that the company is on track to produce 2,500 to 3,000 cars this year, we further subtract from those order totals. Kind of puts a dent in things, doesn't it?

Rob (not verified)    November 17, 2012 - 5:12PM

In reply to by Aaron Turpen

The 1,000 sigs are included in the 2-3k cars for this year, you are trying to double deduct. Once you subtract sigs there are 14,500 further US orders alone still pending, take another 2,000 orders off for remaining 2012 production leaves 12,500 US reservations alone so far for 2013 production, new US reservations are coming in at a rate over 300 per week at present, let's drop that to 200 and we still have over 10,000 new US orders to come in 2013, so by the end of 2013 ignoring all other markets there will be orders for over 22,500 vehicles.
Suggesting that the EPA approvals for the 60 and 40kwh vehicles won't come through early in the year is specious, Tesla has been in no hurry because such a large number of orders are for 85kwh models which with a slightly higher profit margin they would prefer to produce first anyway. Similarly suggesting that no international approvals will come through in 2013 is also specious. These numbers clearly indicate that 20,000 orders for Model S is a very pessimistic sales target.

Aaron Turpen    November 17, 2012 - 9:02PM

In reply to by Rob (not verified)

You ignored two of my points. First, no international sales can take place until the car can be shipped there. That's pending approvals, which Tesla has literally made no announcement on other than they plan to build right-hand drive cars "in 2013" - which could be anytime - and those approvals could come in January, July, November... the later they come, the less likely that car will be shipped in 2013.

Second, reservations might be high, but the dropout rate has also been roughly equal to (or slightly below) the signup rate. So going with your 200/mo in purchases (a reasonable target) and **assuming** the numbers above are correct, then yes, 20,000 sales would be possible. This assumes the numbers above are correct AND the sales figures hold throughout the year. Both of which are unsubstantiated and just best guesses.

I've personally read multiple accounts on blogs and online publications wherein the potential owner is lamenting because they ordered one of the smaller battery options AND hoped to get it before the end of the year for tax reasons. For many of the lower-income buyers, that tax break is crucial to their car's affordability. Waiting until April 2014 is not going to help sales. I predict a slew of pre-orders will be dropped at the end of the year, just before Dec 31.

Rob (not verified)    November 17, 2012 - 10:39PM

In reply to by Aaron Turpen

I did not ignore the point about international approvals, my whole reply addressed by showing that 20,000 sales would be easily achieved in the US market alone in the unlikely event that not a single international approval was achieved in 2013.
As for not addressing a point about reservations and drop out rates being nearly equal, as far as I can see that's the first time you have made that point so its a little hard for me to have ignored it. Regardless it is a ridiculous claim. Total reservations are at least 19,330 as of 11/16//2012. Total drop outs as of 11/5/2012 conference call was ~3,500, however anyone who downgraded from a signature model to a standard production model received a new reservation number and is included as a "drop out" in those 3,500. We know that 1,353 reservation numbers have been issued for 1,000 sigs therefore there are around 350 cancellations or downgrades, so the actual net cancellations is about 3,200 out of 19,330 total reservations. Many of the people who placed reservation but dropped out between 2009 and 2012 did so because of many factors including changing financial circumstances, purchasing other vehicles rather then waiting etc. I think it is highly unlikely that the drop out rate is going to massively increase now that people are placing down payments on actual production vehicles which they can test drive and expect to receive on a reasonably predictable time frame. Remember early reservation holders reserved without having even seen a final design let alone an actual car, a test drive or a review, he'll they didn't even know if the car would ever make it to production.
I think a few people may cancel due to missing the 2012 tax cut off (many may simply defer their delivery until later in 2013) however I don't expect it will be substantial, I also think it is just as unsubstantiated and as much of a guess as my expectation reservation rates will hold but we will know soon enough. For the record with cars on the road, almost unanimous praise from every reputable reviewer and the slew of awards the vehicle is receiving I don't expect the reservation rate to hold I expect it to rise significantly.

Rob (not verified)    November 24, 2012 - 1:21AM

In reply to by Rob (not verified)

1 week since I last posted the tally and US Reservation number 14,480 just reported to the Teslamotorsclub forum. That's at least 496 US reservations alone in the last week. Thats a 25,700 reservations per year rate from the US alone. Only time will tell but I think the Model S will be supply constrained not demand constrained for at least the next 2 years.

Rob (not verified)    December 28, 2012 - 6:38AM

In reply to by Rob (not verified)

A month down the track from my lat tally update. US production res. # 16,921 has been reported. That is at least 2340 reservations in the past month. Based on deliveries and cancellations so far we are probably starting 2013 with ~14,000 pending reservations. Canadian certification is complete and first Ca deliveries are scheduled for February, there are ~1,000 canadian Reservations bringing the pending reservations to ~15,000 at the start of 2013. So for them to not acheive sales of at least 20,000 vehicles in 2013 you are suggesting they will not receive 5,000 orders in 2013, despite receiving over 2,300 in the last month?

Rob (not verified)    January 29, 2013 - 5:06PM

In reply to by Rob (not verified)

Another month and #18728 has been logged, that's a further 1800 US reservations despite a drop after the price increase, reservation rates are slowly rising again back to the long term trend. With Canadian reservations we are at ~17,000 pending reservations, the first few European approvals are in and first European deliveries are scheduled for June. We are now looking at ~18,000 pending reservations ready for a 2013 delivery. 20,000 is now an improbably low expectation for 2013 sales, I have little doubt that if they can manufacture them then they will have orders for ~30,000 vehicles.

Nima K (not verified)    November 17, 2012 - 6:13PM

In reply to by Aaron Turpen

Hi Aaron,
I think I’ve said my piece here and we'll agree to disagree on our predictions on Tesla, we can just watch for the New Year and see what happens. :)

Just one more note in regards to the tax credit offered by the Federal government. According to any article I can find on this (I would post the link but this website doesn't allow links), the repeal you speak of happened at the beginning of 2012 and it involves home charging stations ($1000) and hybrid and low speed vehicle tax credits (up to $4000). The part of the bill covering the $7500 tax credit for pure EVs has been left intact, and even though Rep. Mike Kelly (R-PA) has put forth a bill through H.R 3768, to try and end this tax credit too, it has not even gotten close to passing and with the senate in the hands of Democrats and the president running on an electric future, I highly doubt it would pass in the coming 4 years. So if you have the source for this info on the EV tax credit getting canceled I would really appreciate seeing it, as it effects allot of people.

I just wanted to say thank you for the piece and for responding to all the comments.

All the best,
Nima

Aaron Turpen    November 17, 2012 - 9:09PM

In reply to by Nima K (not verified)

Thanks, Nima. It's not the tax credit's existence I was referring to (it's intact and may be raised to $10,000 by all accounts), it's the fact that you don't get the tax credit until the next year's taxes. So if someone doesn't get their car before December 31, 2012, then they have to wait until April 2014 to take the credit since delivery (and thus sale) took place in 2013 instead of 2012. If they could legally pull it off, I'm sure Tesla (and others) would pre-SALE the car in 2012 so that the buyer could get the credit early, but the law requires DELIVERY of the car during the tax year. For many mid-income buyers, this is literally what makes the car affordable.

Mike F (not verified)    November 19, 2012 - 10:38PM

In reply to by Aaron Turpen

Aaron: "if someone doesn't get their car before December 31, 2012, then they have to wait until April 2014 to take the credit"

I think it is disingenuous for you to say that purchasers have to wait till April 2014 to get the benefit of the tax credit. Anyone can adjust their payroll withholding tax down to zero in the first few months of the year until the $7,500 tax credit is used up. Or for taxpayers who have to make quarterly payments, they can likewise reduce the first one by $7,500.

The only purchasers who might have a problem are ones who might not have a tax liability of $7,500 in 2013 to offset the credit against, but do in 2012.

DrJohnM (not verified)    November 19, 2012 - 11:30AM

In reply to by Aaron Turpen

Hi Aaron,

I very much think that they will do the calculation and if not, Tesla will do it for them, just like the solar industry does when it sells its panels. This of course will be something new. Why would a 'dealer' tell you how much your going to PAY each month on running costs. It's a negative selling point, so you would not make a thing it of it.

Secondly, you have incredibly low petrol/gas prices in the USA. 98 octane costs about €1.75 here in the Netherlands (google benzineprijzen for xref). A today's exchange rate and considering US gallons (not imperial), that's equivalent of $9.16 per US gallon.

Changes are being put in place to charge parking based on CO2 output, so public parking will cost over €50 a day for something like a BMW 5 in Amsterdam.

There is also the reduced car purchase tax and reduced annual road tax for electric cars.

If you commute to London, your going to save about $3,500 per year just on the congestion charge for travelling in London (CC zone, because its a green car).

These are big incentives. The majority of them were put in place to get people off the road and into public transport and smaller cars. It is so expensive to own and run a private car here in the Netherlands that people do drive about in Fiat 500s, Audi A1's etc. the introduction of the Model S will make luxury driving almost affordable!

DrJohnM (not verified)    November 19, 2012 - 12:28PM

In reply to by Aaron Turpen

Hi Aaron,

Just as a FYI... This is from the Tesla NL web site FAQ:

Wanneer zal de productie van Model S beginnen?
De Europese productie voor landen waar links wordt gereden zal volgens planning eind 2012 of begin 2013 beginnen.

When is the production of the Model S beginning?
The European product for countries where left is driven shall, according to the plans, begin [delivery] end of 2012, start 2013

It actually does not say that delivery starts. Specifically the questionand/answer is about production.

I agree with you that selling based on savings would be a change to the model for Tesla. The Dutch pages do have comparisons on costs for charging v petrol and I don't think at this time they need to sell on the basis of savings. However, I suggest that you take a look at the 'go electic' pages on the UK web site under the paragraph 'incentives' where it lists a slew of benefits in Euro countries. In fact they have a "ELECTRIC VEHICLE INCENTIVES AROUND THE WORLD" section for calculating your benefits.

Todd R. Lockwood (not verified)    November 20, 2012 - 1:18PM

In reply to by Aaron Turpen

Tesla's EV drive train is not entirely untested; over 1.5 million miles have been logged on the Tesla Roadsters since 2008. The Roadster uses substantially similar technology, including Tesla's water-cooled battery pack. The electric motor is unchanged. The Model S went through three years of development, including fleets of Alpha and Beta vehicles. As CEO/Chief Engineer of a rocket company, Tesla's CEO Elon Musk is probably better equipped than most automotive CEO's at understanding testing protocols. In the rocket business, you only get one chance to get it right.

Don't underestimate the draw of a vehicle which... a) looks like a million bucks, b) goes like hell, c) costs 1/8 as much to fuel, and d) is priced right in line with its gas-powered competition. At the moment, the primary impediment to new orders is the 8-month waiting period. Tesla believes this lag will be shortened to about 3-months during 2013. Simply having a few thousand vehicles on the road will drive new orders. When owners of Audi, BMW and Mercedes Benz cars see their neighbor filling up his Tesla with $10 of electricity while they fill their cars with $80 of gasoline, that's when the pendulum will really begin to swing.

Whether Tesla produces 15,000 or 20,000 cars in 2013 is unimportant in the big picture, provided the company is producing positive cash flow and paying down its debt. Given that the company expects to be cash positive by the end of December, I'm not too concerned for them.

MarkH (not verified)    November 17, 2012 - 12:18PM

I don't think that the "electric car" market is a relevant concept for gauging demand here since Tesla's goal has always been to produce a superior vehicle that happens to be electric and the recent unanimous COTY award shows they are on track to do that.

There are some markets outside the US however that being a pure EV may give Tesla an unbeatable edge. Take a look at Norway and Denmark. Current tax advantages and perks for EVs give Tesla such an enormous edge that it could potentially change the entire luxury car market, blowing BMW and Mercedes out of the water even in the first year if they can ship enough vehicles.

Elsewhere in Europe despite a recession, the high end luxury market will remain strong and Tesla has a potent image. In many local markets laws give EVs unique perks that may be unusally strong draws to luxury car buyers...and Tesla is the only player there is in that segment. What's it worth to a luxury high end car buyer to have the right to use bus lanes to bypass those ordinary mortals in old fashioned smoking BMWs and Mercedes? Use special parking? Enter central London without paying for it? What's it worth to have your big luxury car but still claim the mantle of being green? I suspect it's worth a lot.

DrJohnM (not verified)    November 19, 2012 - 9:55AM

Just to add some out of USA experience...

I have been a follower of the Model S and the Roadster. I live in the Neherlands. There is a phisical Tesla store in the Netherlands, also I know that there is at least one in Belgium and Germany. Also in the UK.

All of Europe is left hand drive except the UK and some of its dependent islands.

I have not placed an order for the model S mainly because it won't be available here for a while yet and I have not physically seen one, however, I just sold my Jaguar XKR and will not be replacing it with another Jaguar (this is my third - if you include the Daimler V12 as a re-badged Jag). For me, I would rather wait a little before purchasing a new car because I truly believe that we are on a cusp of change.

Seeking alpha reports "According to the unofficial count, the reservation rate has increased to about 54 orders per day over the last week. In the previous three months, the lowest and highest respective per day rates were about 15 and 39." Also that there are 13,844 reservations for the Model S as of November 14, 2012. At the current order rate, they have ca 20,000 new orders a year. This is without any real advertising by the company. Links are not allowed, but you could google the article. seekingalpha reservation rate increases risk decreases for tesla motors

Once the car has the EU certificate of conformity, they basically can sell in all European countries (notwithstanding any divergence in local taxes that may or may not make the car an attractive purchase).

I do not think the car will sell well in Germany or the UK. In Germany, the speed that people drive on the autobahnen would deplete the battery to fast. In the UK, there seems to be a slow take up of electric cars. Maybe due to the sponsorship of TopGear by the oil industry and the faked failure of the roadster when they 'tested' it and the negativity shown in general by the BBC.

I would not underestimate the market in Europe. I discovered recently that my neighbour has placed a deposit for a Model S over a year ago. So if I do decide to get a Model S, that will be two in just one street with about 30 houses on it.

On the subject of recalls, you should also not forget that the software can be updated remotely. The first cars did not have the memory function for the electric seats. This was added as a download. The running gear is a lot less complex. The battery technology has been tested in the Roadster.

Pleas also remember that for Tesla, the price for the battery pack will only get less. If they get the planned 25% profit margin on sales and if the battery pack costs for the 85kw model goes down by 25%, considering they sell the 85kw at a USD20k price increase, you could assume the pack is USD30k, less the 25% margin is a USD22,500 cost to Tesla. A 25% reduction in that components cost will increase the profit by USD5,625. That would be like adding 7% or so to your profit (based on a 85kw USD100k price) changing the margin to 30%+. If one of these 3x or 10x technological breakthroughs happen on battery performance, then they have a BMW M5 killer costing maybe USD20k less.

There are risks, but the opportunities are very high.